Deep Dive Into Contribution Margin & Marketing Efficiency Ratio (MER) For Ecommerce Brands – Episode 25: 7-Figures & Beyond Podcast

Episode Summary

In this episode of the 7 Figures and Beyond e-commerce marketing podcast, host Greg delves into the essential financial metrics that e-commerce brands must monitor and optimize with guest Jon Blair, a fractional CFO for D2C brands. The episode focuses on the importance of understanding and aligning on key metrics like the Marketing Efficiency Ratio (MER) and Contribution Margin. Jon emphasizes that consistency in metric definitions across a company prevents misalignment and enhances departmental cooperation, particularly between marketing and finance. He advocates for a focus on contribution margin dollars over percentage, stressing the significance of actual dollars in achieving business profitability rather than merely tracking ratios or percentages. The discussion also touches on strategies for optimizing these metrics, including cost management and strategic pricing to improve the bottom line.

Key Takeaways

  1. Consistency in Metrics: It’s vital for all team members to use and understand the same definitions for crucial metrics like MER to ensure alignment and avoid confusion within and across departments.
  2. Focus on Contribution Margin Dollars: Jon advises prioritizing the dollar amount of the contribution margin rather than its percentage, as this reflects more directly on a company’s profitability and ability to cover fixed costs.
  3. Optimizing Contribution Margin: Implementing strategic pricing, managing variable costs effectively, and making informed product decisions based on SKU-level contribution margins can significantly improve financial health.
  4. Understanding MER: This metric provides a holistic view of marketing spend effectiveness, essential for budget allocation and marketing strategy adjustments.
  5. Importance of Dollars Over Percentages: Ultimately, focusing on generating dollars rather than merely achieving certain ratios or percentages is crucial, as profitability in dollar terms is what sustains and grows a business.

Episode Links

Greg Shuey LinkedIn:

Jon Blair LinkedIn:

Free To Grow CFO:

Episode Transcript

Greg: 0:26
Hey, everyone, welcome to episode 25 of the 7 Figures and Beyond podcast. Today is a great day to have a podcast. I’m excited about our guest and our topic, because we don’t talk about numbers enough. So today’s guest is Jon Blair. John is a fractional CFO, that’s, Chief Financial Officer for D2C Brands, so his business is Free to Grow. CFO, he works with seven and eight figure brands to help scale them while generating a healthy profit and strong cash flow, which is needed for all brands out there. So, Jon, thank you for taking some time out of your busy schedule to be with us today.

Jon: 1:10
Yeah, man, thanks for having me, and if you want a job in sales for us at any point, you can let us know, because you nailed the one-liner there for us. So thank you for that kind intro.

Greg: 1:24
I love it, I love it. So our discussion today is going to be about some of the critical metrics that an e-commerce brand should be aware of, that they should be calculating, optimizing, regardless of their size. So a few of these metrics that we’re going to talk about include contribution, margin and then an acronym that lots of people pronounce differently.

Greg: 1:51
We were just having this discussion before we hopped on, so I call it MER. Jon calls it MER, other people call it MER. It’s also known as marketing efficiency ratio. Jon, why don’t you share with us a little bit about that? Yeah, like, what’s, what’s the best thing to call it?

Jon: 2:11
yeah, um, you know what, excuse me, it’s funny that you mentioned this, because I actually wrote a post on linkedin about this yesterday that, like about the definition of mer and roaz and like what you call it, how you define it there are different pronunciations out there and there are actually slightly different definitions and rather than pour over the nuance of like what you should call it and exactly what your company should define it as, what’s more important is that your team all calls it the same thing and defines it as the same thing. That’s what’s most important, because if you have a misalignment of like MER or MER means this and some people think it means this, but other people think it means that you’re going to have misalignment within a department and, even worse, cross-functionally right, especially across marketing and finance. So I would say I call it MER and I define it as net revenue divided by variable ad spend. But however you define it, however you pronounce it, just get your whole company saying it and defining it the same. So everyone’s on the same page, that’s what’s most important.

Greg: 3:22
There you go, I like that same page. That’s what’s most important. There you go, I like that. So we’re going to talk more about both of those kind of as the episode goes on. My guess is, for most of our listeners, you’ve probably either never heard of either of these, or you’ve heard about them, but you still aren’t using them as metrics to kind of guide your marketing strategy, your decisions and kind of your growth planning, and so it’s going to be a really strong discussion today. I’m really excited. So, john, before we jump in, would you mind just taking a few minutes to introduce yourself to our listeners and share a little bit about your personal story and how you have gotten to where you are today?

Jon: 4:04
Absolutely so. I’ve been running Free to Grow CFO for the last two years, but I really start on the operator and brand side of the world. For the first 15 years of my career, I worked at early stage brands and most recently, or most notably, the last brand that I worked at was a brand called guardian bikes, which, if you’re a shark tank fan, we were on shark tank back in 2017, so it feels like a really long time ago now, like which it was. It was filmed in 2016 and like back then, I feel like that was the, that was the earlier days of ecom, right, I mean Shopify. Like our first site was on Magento and we made the switch to Shopify, right. And so like I feel, like I feel old saying like we had a Magento site and when we migrated to Shopify, we’re like we think this is the right move, but we’re a little nervous because this is a new platform, right, and so the point being of all this, though I worked as a financial operator on the brand side for my whole career and fast forward to 2021, I had been at Guardian for a number of years. We had scaled at me and the other two guys on the founding team from the three of us to 30 people, to healthy eight figures in revenue.

Jon: 5:21
And I just was really ready for the next thing. I started having kids. We, we had three kids really, really quickly. I have three kids all between 18 and 24 months apart, and I was like you know what you start getting in this stage of life where it’s like kind of like the giving back, like give. I want to give back some of this knowledge right that I’ve, that I’ve acquired on the brand side.

Jon: 5:42
And I just kept coming across people on my network in the econ world who’s like struggled to find a financial operator who could come alongside them. Because most of these brand founders what are they? A lot of them are product visionaries. You know, most of them are product visionaries. Some of them are marketing gurus, but I would say much more product visionaries. So they love the product, they love the space they’re in, they love the space they’re in, they love the problem they’re solving and they they aren’t financial operators and they don’t want to be financial operators.

Jon: 6:12
And so what ends up happening is they end up scaling and starts getting more and more complicated to manage profitability and cashflow. And you’re, but you can’t yet afford a full-time CFO. You really? I mean, we work with brands up to 50, 60 million in revenue and they don’t need a full-time CFO yet, right?

Jon: 6:26
And so what you find is, what I found was this gap where, where a financial executive was needed in these growing DTC brands, but they but not one full time. And so I was like, hey, here’s my opportunity to give back to the e-comm world and fight back against the stress and overwhelm of scaling in e-com brand is start a fractional CFO firm focused on e-com and bringing in former e-com finance executives onto our team and having them serve six to eight growing, profit-focused D2C brands at the same time. And so, fast forward to almost a little over two years in. We now have about 25 different brands that we work with for incredible e-com CFOs on staff who all came from the brand side of the world, and then a small e-commerce accounting team that does e-commerce bookkeeping Again, everyone on that team having come from the brand side of the world.

Greg: 7:18
That’s amazing. I love it. I love it so much. Well, thank you. Thank you for that introduction. I think we’re going to have a really, really good discussion, so I think we’re going to try to split the episode in half so that we’re not jumping around between kind of these two metrics. We’re going to spend the first part talking about contribution margin, second part talking about marketing efficiency ratio. Second part talking about marketing efficiency ratio. So, when it comes to contribution margin, for those who are unaware of what it is, can you help our listeners understand what it is, how to calculate it, and then let’s talk about why it’s critical for them to understand this metric and to track it.

Jon: 8:03
Absolutely so. In its simplest form, contribution margin is net revenue, meaning net of discounts and returns, minus what are called variable costs. Variable costs are costs that go up and down in concert in direct correlation with orders. So every time there’s an order, there’s a cost of goods sold for the product, there’s a shipping and fulfillment costs, there’s a credit card fee, right, those are your major variable costs.

Jon: 8:31
And so the reason why contribution margin is a metric that is important is because when you make a sale, you don’t keep the gross revenue right. What you keep is gross revenue minus returns, minus discounts, minus your product cost of goods sold, minus the credit card fee, minus the shipping and fulfillment and then, furthermore, minus the ad spend that it took to acquire that customer right. So that is what’s left over. Here’s where contribution comes into play. That’s what’s left over to contribute to covering your fixed overhead. And hopefully, if you have more contribution margin dollars than your fixed overhead, then that contributes to bottom line profitability. And so it’s changing this perspective of like top line revenue is something to measure. It’s not an unnecessary metric, but what do you actually keep after every sale? And that’s contribution margin and that’s available to contribute to and cover fixed overhead and then hopefully beyond that covered or contribute to bottom line profitability.

Greg: 9:42
I love that. I mean, it makes perfect sense, right, and that’s 100% why it’s important to be able to track that, because if you’re have super low margin, like contribution margin, you’re not, you’re going to be losing money at the end of the day and so you’ve got to work to optimize that number. I love that. So, as you and I have had kind of a couple of conversations offline, you know we’ve talked about kind of two different metrics. We’ve got contribution margin dollar versus contribution margin percentage. So can we kind of unpack why brands should shift their thinking towards optimizing their goals set in dollars instead of percentage?

Jon: 10:25
Absolutely, and so the technical term for contribution margin percentage is contribution margin ratio, but I never use that term. I use percentage, even though it’s kind of like. It feels like, as a finance guy, a little irky to say percentage.

Jon: 10:40
It’s a little weird but I say that because that’s what it is. It’s the rate. Contribution margin ratio is a percentage of revenue and what it tells you is. So let’s say your contribution margin ratio, or percentage, is 20%. That means after you take revenue top line revenue you subtract all those variable costs. We talked about. 20 cents of that revenue dollar is left over to contribute to fixed overhead and bottom line profitability.

Jon: 11:09
It is not, again, just like top line revenue. It’s not an unnecessary metric to track. You should know it, you should know if it’s going up, you should know if it’s going down, you should know why it’s going up or down. But there’s a huge mistake out there that I see time and time again, which is setting ad spend and MER or MER goals around achieving an optimal contribution margin percentage or ratio. And what’s wrong with that is that optimizing for that percentage doesn’t always drive more contribution margin dollars.

Jon: 11:48
And, like I said, the profit equation is revenue minus variable costs equals contribution margin dollars, minus fixed cost dollars equals profit dollars. And if so, if fixed costs are held fixed right, in theory they’re constant the way you increase profit is you increase contribution margin dollars, right. And so the trap is you can tell. You can tell a marketer hey, a three mer gets me to the 25% contribution margin ratio that I want to be at. And here’s where the dilemma is the ad buyer Okay goes, I can only spend so many dollars of ad spend at a three MER. I know that if I want to scale beyond a certain point in ad dollars I’m going to have to stop because the law of diminishing returns the MER, is eventually going to come down below three.

Jon: 12:47
The trap is, if you understand how the math works and this is where a D2C CFO can help you if you understand how the math works, there are actually. There are actually scenarios where you can increase ad spend and let your MER come down below three and let your contribution margin ratio drop, but it actually produces more contribution margin dollars, which actually produces more profit dollars. And so what we’ve tried to do this is a newer effort within our firm. We’re really working hard to a newer effort within our firm. We’re really working hard to change the mindset of our clients to say, hey, don’t tell me if you want to make 10% EBITDA, how many EBITDA dollars do you want to make? And then we can help you build out a table of MER and ad spend pairs that all result in the same EBITDA dollar goal.

Greg: 13:38
Yeah, interesting, that’s fascinating. To me, kind of as an outsider, this all kind of sounds overwhelming to me, right? Are these metrics and these calculations? Is this all done very manually? Are there any tools out there that can help automate it?

Jon: 13:58
So there are a lot of tools out there that are working on solving this problem and they’re all in. I don’t want to call it beta. They’re not in beta, but they are. In theory. The tools work, but what they’re working on is how do they get brands to interact with them so that they work in practice? Right, and so like a really solid one is store hero, um, and the tool is very solid, but they’re working through.

Jon: 14:27
How do we get a brand to interact with this platform? Cause you can’t, unfortunately, have a B 100% automated. You do have to interact with it and make sure that you’re feeding it the right variable costs, the right fixed costs, right, you can’t give it garbage in, garbage out, um, um. But for us, what we’re doing right now on, we’re doing it manually on the cfo front and what we’re trying to do. Here’s what we realized, greg. We realized that because there’s more than one MER ad spend pair that can get to the same bottom line profit goal, it’s actually better for us to give a range we call it a sensitivity analysis table where you can look up at this MER. How much do I have to spend to hit that EBITDA dollars or bottom line dollars target?

Greg: 15:13
Got it.

Jon: 15:14
And you give that to the brand and you give that to the ad buyer, and so you still give them a goal hey, spend 100K at a three, mer, right.

Jon: 15:22
But as they inevitably start scaling into that and they realize they can’t hit a three and they’re like you know what, we’re going to probably hit a 2.7. They can go look at that chart and say, can’t have to spend 150 at a 2.7, I actually think I can do that. And so, rather than freeze because they’re like I’m not gonna, I’m gonna drop below three. The client’s gonna get really pissed at me, right, rather than freeze, they can go to that chart and say, hey, your cfo said if I spend 150 at a 2.7, I can still hit the same goal. Um, I feel confident that are you okay with me doing that? And then, and then the the client is, yeah, let’s give that a shot. Then, if the agency or the ad buyer fails, they said they thought they could do it and they failed. And so you have a conversation around that, not a conversation around like you let this thing drop below three and you didn’t cut back, spend, it’s just. And that’s not a productive conversation in my opinion.

Greg: 16:16
Right, got it, okay, cool. So what are some of the things or strategies that brands can start to work on and implement to improve their contribution margin?

Jon: 16:26
Yeah, so I mean first, the first strategy is literally just laying out all of your variable costs by product in front of you so you can actually see it Right. And this is where the contribution margin ratio, the percentage of revenue, it’s helpful is laying out your products next to each other on a spreadsheet and putting in the unit cost of goods sold, the unit shipping and fulfillment costs and and looking at what the percentages of revenue are for those different cost items. And what you’re going to inevitably find is that you have some SKUs that produce a high contribution margin ratio, so that’s like a high percentage of every much volume you’re pushing of particular SKUs that have good or bad contribution margins. And you can do things just literally thinking through SKU rationalization, like does it make sense to sell this SKU that is such a low margin, or is this low contribution margin skew connected to a repeat purchase of a high contribution margin skew? So literally just starting by lining it all up and seeing what the dollars, contribution margin, dollars and percentages for every skew, and thinking through how you might want to tweak your strategy to drive a higher margin is step one. And then step two is and this is harder, I’m not saying you can’t do it.

Jon: 17:58
But step two is like are there areas that you can get your landed product costs down? Are there things you can do on negotiating a little bit with your supplier on your manufacturer? Is there something you can do on your freight in cost? And on the fulfillment side? It oftentimes is do we have inventory placed in the optimal number of warehouses? And when you’re small you can only do a small number of warehouses.

Jon: 18:25
So this is an economies of scale type thing. But you should ask yourself, you should reanalyze it or talk to your 3PL and say, hey, do you have any suggestions on how to be more optimal about how many fulfillment centers that we have? So those are kind of like just some of the quick ones that come to mind. And I would say the third one which I probably should have mentioned first is once you line up all your SKU level contribution margins, you should ask yourself if you should try some pricing changes, like you’d be surprised how raising the price strategically across specific SKUs, how often that ends up making no difference to conversion rate and you might be able to improve the contribution margin for SKUs that you did. That Again, once you have them all lined up contribution margin right next to each other, you’re like, damn, that is a terrible margin for this product. Anyways, those are some things that kind of just come to mind immediately.

Greg: 19:23
Yeah, I love that. I love the idea of kind of lining them all up too, because that can help guide some of your marketing strategy. Like, are there five products with really really good contribution margin that you can then push really really, really hard to be able to drive new customer acquisition, and it gives you a little bit of wiggle room there to be able to play with your cost per acquisition numbers. Can you spend a little bit more because you have some more contribution margin and whatnot?

Jon: 19:51
So I like that. One other thing I was just thinking too that I see in practice is like understand your inventory levels by SKU. If you have an ad that shows a specific product and you know you’re going to stock out of that product, you should stop spending ad dollars on it. You should squeeze out all the contribution margin you can because you’re going to sell out of that product anyways. If you’ve got something that’s heavier stocked and you need to move it, you can actually increase contribution margin dollars by relaxing your MER constraint and allowing lower efficiency and pushing on ads and so like it’s a waste to spend ad dollars on a product that has got to sell out anyways.

Jon: 20:33
You should just let it sell out right, and you should shift that spend to something that has ample inventory. That’s another thing I see brands do too.

Greg: 20:40
Interesting, cool, great insight there. So let’s shift over and talk a little bit about MER. I’m going to call it the way you call it MER. We already talked a little bit about kind of how to calculate it, but let’s dive in and kind of unpack why this metric is critical’m going to tell you how we define it and I would say a lot of people define it this way.

Jon: 21:18
If you don’t define it this way, it’s okay, as long as, like I said earlier, that your team has a common definition and pronunciation of these terms. So, roas return on ad spend we define ROAS as in-platform ROAS, attributable revenue. Right, a platform the Facebook platform, the meta platform, the Google platform is attributing X dollars in revenue to the ad spend you spend on the platform, and so that is attributed platform revenue divided by ad spend on that platform. That’s ROAS. Mer is marketing efficiency ratio. That is some segment of your business’s revenue. So, for example, d to C MER would be all of your Shopify store revenue divided by all the ad spend that we think could be contributing to that revenue, which, in most cases, for most brands we work with, they have an Amazon seller store. It’s just, it’s all Shopify revenue divided by all ad spend, except for Amazon. And then you look at the Amazon seller central MER it’s all of Amazon revenue divided by all of Amazon ad spend. Right, and so the reason it’s important to measure MER is because, as we all know what’s ROAS, it’s a platform attributed revenue, platform attributed revenues imperfect and and it gets double counted and there’s all kinds of issues with it.

Jon: 22:48
Right, you should still look at platform ROAS. You should not stop looking at that, because every brand we work with it’s directionally accurate, right? So, like, if your agency is making changes on those platforms and the ROAS is going up and you see MER going up at the same time, then that means it’s directionally accurate, right? Because your whole segment of revenue, attributed and non-attributed, is getting more efficient while the ROAS is going up on the platform. So I’m drawing out that illustration because you should look at both of them and see that they go in the same direction. Every once in a while, you see something wonky where they go in the opposite direction and you should question then that something’s up with one or the other, right? Um, but but the the? The short answer is looking at ROAS on the platform and then looking at MER. Mer gives you that holistic view that proves that what’s happening on the platform ROAS is actually hitting your bottom line. It’s actually hitting your PNL the way that you would expect an increase or a decrease in performance.

Greg: 24:00
Got it Okay, perfect, a little bit easier to calculate that number, I would think.

Jon: 24:07
Yeah, and I mean, here’s some other ways to use MER strategically. You have to be patient, right, but like, if you’re willing to make one change at a time to your funnel and see what happens to mer, you can kind of have a. You can back into this like implied incrementality of making that change, right. And so if you’re, if you um do ab testing on whatever let’s call it, you’re just going to swap out messaging one change at a time on a landing page that you’re driving ads to, and if you don’t change anything else in the funnel and you don’t even change ad spend and you just watch how MER changes. It’s not 100% certain, but you have a decent amount of certainty that the incremental impact of that.

Jon: 24:56
One change is impacting MER or profitability in this way or that way, so that’s another way to consider using MER. I have a brand that sells on Amazon, seller and Shopify. They do about $40 million a year in revenue total, and we were testing the incrementality of spending on Amazon PPC, and so we didn’t change anything in the funnel, except for we just cut ad spend on Amazon PPC. We saw a myrrh rise across the business and we saw it stay there and it didn’t come down, and so we were like, hmm, is Amazon ad spend doing nothing? Keep in mind this brand’s spending $2 million a month on meta, so that’s probably driving a lot of Amazon.

Greg: 25:39
And you’ve got some trickle effect for sure.

Jon: 25:41
And so we kind of toyed with turning on Amazon, spend turning it off, turning it on, turning it off, turning it on, turning it off, and seeing what happened to Mer, and we concluded like A we’re not going to waste our time spending on Amazon because Facebook’s doing all the work for us. So that’s another kind of example.

Greg: 25:59
Yeah, cool, awesome. I know we’ve talked about a couple of things, but what are maybe some other ways that brands can use Mer to make some informed decisions about their marketing spend?

Jon: 26:08
Well, I mean using it. I guess this is sort of like a pro tip, but like. This is where this is something that we do very regularly as CFOs in the D2C space is like using contribution margin and MER in concert with one another right margin formula. What you can do is begin to build out scenarios of at this MER if my goal is to hit a certain number of contribution margin dollars every month, I know at this MER, I need to spend this much. At this MER, I need to spend this much At this MER, I need to spend this much and they all result in hitting your goal.

Jon: 26:57
And so it is not about to be honest with you, the pro brands, the elite brands. They don’t choose one MER to try to hit. They do set a goal for the month, they set a guideline, but they understand what different ad spend levels they can spend at at different MERS that are other than their goal and still hit their profitability targets. And so understanding that relationship is like is super incredibly important, because you can’t have one without the other one. So, like when an ad buyer is like hey, john, um, uh, what murder I need to hit. My second question is always like well, how much can you spend? Because it really is both of those things, it’s not one or the other.

Greg: 27:46
Yeah, got it. I like that a lot, cool. So it’s 2024. Things are weird in e-commerce honestly. I mean across our entire client base. I mean we see a lot of wins. We see some you know industries and some clients that are struggling right. As you look forward to kind of the next six to 12 months, what kind of trends are you seeing, kind of predictions that you have that brands should be thinking about as they try to get ahead this year?

Jon: 28:22
yeah, so um. One thing that I think I’m seeing super clearly across our client base is that, with um, some of this may sound like d to c 101, but I’m saying it because not enough brands are intentional about this. The brands that are going to win in 2025 and beyond are the ones that have, generally speaking, high aov and a high contribution margin uh dollars order, which means that they have high contribution margin dollars per order because their AOV is high enough and that percentage is high enough, like I’m and I’m talking like I’m seeing brands the brands that are crushing it can be profitable on a tumor because their contribution margin before marketing is 70%, which is high, right, and so the brands that are going to be able to continue to scale and do so profitably are going to be a combination of higher AOV, high contribution margin ratio and repeat purchase. And the ones that are intentional about baking that into their product mix on the front end when they’re doing the product development going like, how am I going to develop something that has a high aov, that has a high contribution margin ratio, right? So I’m keeping the most dollars uh that I can on every single order and how do I get people to buy more stuff from me after that first purchase. Those are the ones that are going to win and to to be quite honest with you. I’m not saying that you can’t make it if you need a MER that’s higher than a two, because there are, believe me, there’s plenty of the brands that we work with that need a MER that’s higher than two.

Jon: 30:09
But the ones that are hyper growth can scale at a two to a two and a half and be profitable, and it’s because their AOV is high enough and their contribution margin dollars per order are high enough that they can. They can spend 50 to 40 to 50% of their revenue on advertising and still turn a profit, so they’re able to scale into that. And the ones that need a three or four or five, it’s not that there’s no business there, it’s just the law of diminishing returns. You will only be able to crank your ad spend so much and in a world of like post iOS 14 and like CPMs are more expensive, there’s more competition in digital um advertising channels. My prediction is that you’re going to see low margin brands continue to struggle and get weeded out just from a fear pure economic standpoint, and the ones that have those high margins are going to be able to, are going to be able to scale into meta and these other platforms and and get to the 40, 50, 60 plus million a year in revenue.

Greg: 31:14
Got it Cool, very cool. I know we’ve talked about a lot today like do you have any, you know, before we wrap up, any kind of final words of wisdom for brands listening in?

Jon: 31:26
uh, honestly, just to repeat a couple things and and these can’t be like under emphasized get your team on the same page about your internal marketing metrics definitions. Get on the same page about how you define ROAS, how you define MER. Get your team understanding the basics of contribution margin and get your team rallied around that. And just honestly change your mindset to think about dollars generated, track, track percentages, track ratios right, because they’re important to understand efficiency, but optimize for dollars and why. Dollars pay your vendors, dollars pay your employees, dollars pay owner distributions, ebitda. Dollars are what your business will be valued on if you end up exiting. So optimize for dollars, because dollars are what actually matter.

Greg: 32:22
I love it. That’s kind of a good place to wrap up there. We’re going to include your LinkedIn, your website, in the show notes. If someone listening to this says you know what, I want to talk to him. I want to potentially work with those guys. Is the best thing to do is connect with you on LinkedIn or reach out through your website. How do you, how do you prefer that?

Jon: 32:44
Yeah, so you can find me on LinkedIn John Blair, j O N Blair, or visit our website free to grow cfocom.

Greg: 32:53
Cool, Awesome. Well, thank you that was. That was a really good session. Probably scared a few people. They’re probably a little overwhelmed thinking about how am I going to calculate those metrics, but it was very helpful for me and I know it was very helpful for a lot of our listeners as well. So thank you again for being with us today.

Jon: 33:13
Awesome. Thanks for having me, man.

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